□アメリカ大統領選挙　第一回テレビ討論会(原文)　その2

　http://www.jihadunspun.net/index-side_external.php?article=99946&list=/home.php&

(CROSSTALK)

LEHRER:ﾊWe can do 30 second each here.ﾊAll right.ﾊ

BUSH:ﾊMy opponent says help is on the way, but what kind of message does it say to our troops in harm's way, "wrong war, wrong place, wrong time"?ﾊNot a message a commander in chief gives, or this is a "great diversion."ﾊ

As well, help is on the way, but it's certainly hard to tell it when he voted against the $87-billion supplemental to provide equipment for our troops, and then said he actually did vote for it before he voted against it. Not what a commander in chief does when you're trying to lead troops.

LEHRER:ﾊSenator Kerry, 30 seconds.

KERRY:ﾊWell, you know, when I talked about the $87 billion, I made a mistake in how I talk about the war.ﾊBut the president made a mistake in invading Iraq.ﾊWhich is worse?

I believe that when you know something's going wrong, you make it right.ﾊThat's what I learned in Vietnam.ﾊWhen I came back from that war I saw that it was wrong.ﾊSome people don't like the fact that I stood up to say no, but I did.ﾊAnd that's what I did with that vote. And I'm going to lead those troops to victory.

LEHRER:ﾊAll right, new question.ﾊTwo minutes, Senator Kerry.

Speaking of Vietnam, you spoke to Congress in 1971, after you came back from Vietnam, and you said, quote, "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

LEHRER:ﾊAre Americans now dying in Iraq for a mistake?

KERRY:ﾊNo, and they don't have to, providing we have the leadership that we put -- that I'm offering.

I believe that we have to win this.ﾊThe president and I have always agreed on that.ﾊAnd from the beginning, I did vote to give the authority, because I thought Saddam Hussein was a threat, and I did accept that intelligence.

But I also laid out a very strict series of things we needed to do in order to proceed from a position of strength.ﾊThen the president, in fact, promised them.ﾊHe went to Cincinnati and he gave a speech in which he said, "We will plan carefully.ﾊWe will proceed cautiously.ﾊWe will not make war inevitable.ﾊWe will go with our allies."

He didn't do any of those things.ﾊThey didn't do the planning. They left the planning of the State Department in the State Department desks.ﾊThey avoided even the advice of their own general.ﾊGeneral Shinsheki, the Army chief of staff, said you're going to need several hundred thousand troops.ﾊInstead of listening to him, they retired him.

KERRY:ﾊThe terrorism czar, who has worked for every president since Ronald Reagan, said, "Invading Iraq in response to 9/11 would be like Franklin Roosevelt invading Mexico in response to Pearl Harbor."ﾊ

That's what we have here.ﾊ

And what we need now is a president who understands how to bring these other countries together to recognize their stakes in this. They do have stakes in it.ﾊThey've always had stakes in it.ﾊ

The Arab countries have a stake in not having a civil war.ﾊThe European countries have a stake in not having total disorder on their doorstep.ﾊ

But this president hasn't even held the kind of statesman-like summits that pull people together and get them to invest in those states.ﾊIn fact, he's done the opposite.ﾊHe pushed them away.ﾊ

When the Secretary General Kofi Annan offered the United Nations, he said, "No, no, we'll go do this alone."ﾊ

To save for Halliburton the spoils of the war, they actually issued a memorandum from the Defense Department saying, "If you weren't with us in the war, don't bother applying for any construction."ﾊ

KERRY:ﾊThat's not a way to invite people.ﾊ

LEHRER:ﾊNinety seconds.

BUSH:ﾊThat's totally absurd.ﾊOf course, the U.N. was invited in.ﾊAnd we support the U.N. efforts there.ﾊThey pulled out after Sergio de Mello got killed.ﾊBut they're now back in helping with elections.ﾊ

My opponent says we didn't have any allies in this war.ﾊWhat's he say to Tony Blair?ﾊWhat's he say to Alexander Kwasniewski of Poland?ﾊYou can't expect to build an alliance when you denigrate the contributions of those who are serving side by side with American troops in Iraq.ﾊ

Plus, he says the cornerstone of his plan to succeed in Iraq is to call upon nations to serve.ﾊSo what's the message going to be: "Please join us in Iraq.ﾊWe're a grand diversion.ﾊJoin us for a war that is the wrong war at the wrong place at the wrong time?"ﾊ

I know how these people think.ﾊI deal with them all the time.ﾊI sit down with the world leaders frequently and talk to them on the phone frequently.ﾊThey're not going to follow somebody who says, "This is the wrong war at the wrong place at the wrong time."

BUSH:ﾊI know how these people think.ﾊI deal with them all the time.ﾊI sit down with the world leaders frequently and talk to them on the phone frequently.ﾊ

They're not going to follow somebody who says this is the wrong war at the wrong place at the wrong time.ﾊThey're not going to follow somebody whose core convictions keep changing because of politics in America.ﾊ

And finally, he says we ought to have a summit.ﾊWell, there are summits being held.ﾊJapan is going to have a summit for the donors; $14 billion pledged.ﾊAnd Prime Minister Koizumi is going to call countries to account, to get them to contribute.

And there's going to be an Arab summit, of the neighborhood countries.ﾊAnd Colin Powell helped set up that summit.ﾊ

LEHRER:ﾊForty seconds, Senator.

KERRY:ﾊThe United Nations, Kofi Annan offered help after Baghdad fell.ﾊAnd we never picked him up on that and did what was necessary to transfer authority and to transfer reconstruction.ﾊIt was always American-run.ﾊ

Secondly, when we went in, there were three countries:ﾊGreat Britain, Australia and the United States.ﾊThat's not a grand coalition.ﾊWe can do better.

LEHRER:ﾊThirty seconds, Mr. President.

BUSH:ﾊWell, actually, he forgot Poland.ﾊAnd now there's 30 nations involved, standing side by side with our American troops.ﾊ

BUSH:ﾊAnd I honor their sacrifices.ﾊAnd I don't appreciate it whenﾊcandidate for president denigrates the contributions of these brave soldiers.ﾊ

You cannot lead the world if you do not honor the contributions of those who are with us.ﾊHe called them coerced and the bribed. That's not how you bring people together.

Our coalition is strong.ﾊIt will remain strong, so long as I'm the president.

LEHRER:ﾊNew question, Mr. President, two minutes.ﾊYou have said there was a, quote, "miscalculation," of what the conditions would be in post-war Iraq.ﾊWhat was the miscalculation, and how did it happen?

BUSH:ﾊNo, what I said was that, because we achieved such a rapid victory, more of the Saddam loyalists were around.ﾊI mean, we thought we'd whip more of them going in.ﾊ

BUSH:ﾊBut because Tommy Franks did such a great job in planning the operation, we moved rapidly, and a lot of the Baathists and Saddam loyalists laid down their arms and disappeared.ﾊI thought they would stay and fight, but they didn't.ﾊ

And now we're fighting them now.ﾊAnd it's hard work.ﾊI understand how hard it is.ﾊI get the casualty reports every day.ﾊI see on the TV screens how hard it is.ﾊBut it's necessary work.ﾊ

And I'm optimistic.ﾊSee, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time.ﾊI'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals.ﾊI know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals to our troops, our friends, the Iraqi citizens.ﾊ

We've got a plan in place.ﾊThe plan says there will be elections in January, and there will be.ﾊThe plan says we'll train Iraqi soldiers so they can do the hard work, and we are.

BUSH:ﾊAnd it's not only just America, but NATO is now helping, Jordan's helping train police, UAE is helping train police.

We've allocated $7 billion over the next months for reconstruction efforts.ﾊAnd we're making progress there.

And our alliance is strong.ﾊAnd as I just told you, there's going to be a summit of the Arab nations.ﾊJapan will be hosting a summit.ﾊWe're making progress.

It is hard work.ﾊIt is hard work to go from a tyranny to a democracy.ﾊIt's hard work to go from a place where people get their hands cut off, or executed, to a place where people are free.ﾊ

But it's necessary work.ﾊAnd a free Iraq is going to make this world a more peaceful place.

LEHRER:ﾊNinety seconds, Senator Kerry.

KERRY:ﾊWhat I think troubles a lot of people in our country is that the president has just sort of described one kind of mistake. But what he has said is that, even knowing there were no weapons of mass destruction, even knowing there was no imminent threat, even knowing there was no connection with al Qaeda, he would still have done everything the same way.ﾊThose are his words.

KERRY:ﾊNow, I would not.ﾊSo what I'm trying to do is just talk the truth to the American people and to the world.ﾊThe truth is what good policy is based on.ﾊIt's what leadership is based on.

The president says that I'm denigrating these troops.ﾊI have nothing but respect for the British, Tony Blair, and for what they've been willing to do.ﾊ

But you can't tell me that when the most troops any other country has on the ground is Great Britain, with 8,300, and below that the four others are below 4,000, and below that, there isn't anybody out of the hundreds, that we have a genuine coalition to get this job done.

KERRY:ﾊYou can't tell me that on the day that we went into that war and it started -- it was principally the United States, the America and Great Britain and one or two others.ﾊThat's it.ﾊAnd today, we are 90 percent of the casualties and 90 percent of the costs.ﾊAnd meanwhile, North Korea has got nuclear weapons.ﾊTalk about mixed messages.ﾊThe president is the one that said, "We can't allow countries to get nuclear weapons."ﾊThey have.ﾊI'll change that.

LEHRER:ﾊNew question.ﾊSenator Kerry, two minutes.ﾊYou just -- you've repeatedly accused President Bush -- not here tonight, but elsewhere before -- of not telling the truth about Iraq, essentially of lying to the American people about Iraq.ﾊGive us some examples of what you consider to be his not telling the truth.

KERRY:ﾊWell, I've never, ever used the harshest word, as you did just then.ﾊAnd I try not to.ﾊI've been -- but I'll nevertheless tell you that I think he has not been candid with the American people.ﾊAnd I'll tell you exactly how.ﾊ

First of all, we all know that in his state of the union message, he told Congress about nuclear materials that didn't exist.

KERRY:ﾊWe know that he promised America that he was going to build this coalition.ﾊI just described the coalition.ﾊIt is not the kind of coalition we were described when we were talking about voting for this.

The president said he would exhaust the remedies of the United Nations and go through that full process.ﾊHe didn't.ﾊHe cut if off, sort of arbitrarily.ﾊ

And we know that there were further diplomatic efforts under way. They just decided the time for diplomacy is over and rushed to war without planning for what happens afterwards.

Now, he misled the American people in his speech when he said we will plan carefully.ﾊThey obviously didn't.ﾊHe misled the American people when he said we'd go to war as a last resort.ﾊWe did not go as a last resort.ﾊAnd most Americans know the difference.

Now, this has cost us deeply in the world.ﾊI believe that it is important to tell the truth to the American people.ﾊI've worked with those leaders the president talks about, I've worked with them for 20 years, for longer than this president.ﾊAnd I know what many of them say today, and I know how to bring them back to the table.

KERRY:ﾊAnd I believe that a fresh start, new credibility, a president who can understand what we have to do to reach out to the Muslim world to make it clear that this is not, you know -- Osama bin Laden uses the invasion of Iraq in order to go out to people and say that America has declared war on Islam.ﾊ

We need to be smarter about now we wage a war on terror.ﾊWe need to deny them the recruits.ﾊWe need to deny them the safe havens.ﾊWe need to rebuild our alliances.ﾊ

I believe that Ronald Reagan, John Kennedy, and the others did that more effectively, and I'm going to try to follow in their footsteps.ﾊ

LEHRER:ﾊNinety seconds, Mr. President.ﾊ

BUSH:ﾊMy opponent just said something amazing.ﾊHe said Osama bin Laden uses the invasion of Iraq as an excuse to spread hatred for America.ﾊOsama bin Laden isn't going to determine how we defend ourselves.ﾊ

BUSH:ﾊOsama bin Laden doesn't get to decide.ﾊThe American people decide.ﾊ

I decided the right action was in Iraq.ﾊMy opponent calls it a mistake.ﾊIt wasn't a mistake.ﾊ

He said I misled on Iraq.ﾊI don't think he was misleading when he called Iraq a grave threat in the fall of 2002.ﾊ

I don't think he was misleading when he said that it was right to disarm Iraq in the spring of 2003.ﾊ

I don't think he misled you when he said that, you know, anyone who doubted whether the world was better off without Saddam Hussein in power didn't have the judgment to be president.ﾊI don't think he was misleading.

I think what is misleading is to say you can lead and succeed in Iraq if you keep changing your positions on this war.ﾊAnd he has.ﾊAs the politics change, his positions change.ﾊAnd that's not how a commander in chief acts.

Let me finish.ﾊ

The intelligence I looked at was the same intelligence my opponent looked at, the very same intelligence.ﾊAnd when I stood up there and spoke to the Congress, I was speaking off the same intelligence he looked at to make his decisions to support the authorization of force.

LEHRER:ﾊThirty seconds.ﾊWe'll do a 30 second here.

KERRY:ﾊI wasn't misleading when I said he was a threat.ﾊNor was I misleading on the day that the president decided to go to war when I said that he had made a mistake in not building strong alliances and that I would have preferred that he did more diplomacy.

I've had one position, one consistent position, that Saddam Hussein was a threat.ﾊThere was a right way to disarm him and a wrong way.ﾊAnd the president chose the wrong way.

LEHRER:ﾊThirty seconds, Mr. President.

BUSH:ﾊThe only consistent about my opponent's position is that he's been inconsistent.ﾊHe changes positions.ﾊAnd you cannot change positions in this war on terror if you expect to win.ﾊ

BUSH:ﾊAnd I expect to win.ﾊIt's necessary we win.ﾊ

We're being challenged like never before.ﾊAnd we have a duty to our country and to future generations of America to achieve a free Iraq, a free Afghanistan, and to rid the world of weapons of mass destruction.

LEHRER:ﾊNew question, Mr. President.ﾊTwo minutes.ﾊ

Has the war in Iraq been worth the cost of American lives, 1,052 as of today?

BUSH:ﾊYou know, every life is precious.ﾊEvery life matters. You know, my hardest -- the hardest part of the job is to know that I committed the troops in harm's way and then do the best I can to provide comfort for the loved ones who lost a son or a daughter or a husband or wife.ﾊ

You know, I think about Missy Johnson.ﾊShe's a fantastic lady I met in Charlotte, North Carolina.ﾊShe and her son Bryan, they came to see me.ﾊHer husband PJ got killed.ﾊHe'd been in Afghanistan, went to Iraq.ﾊ

You know, it's hard work to try to love her as best as I can, knowing full well that the decision I made caused her loved one to be in harm's way.ﾊ

BUSH:ﾊI told her after we prayed and teared up and laughed some that I thought her husband's sacrifice was noble and worthy.ﾊBecause I understand the stakes of this war on terror.ﾊI understand that we must find al Qaeda wherever they hide.ﾊ

We must deal with threats before they fully materialize.ﾊAnd Saddam Hussein was a threat, and that we must spread liberty because in the long run, the way to defeat hatred and tyranny and oppression is to spread freedom.ﾊ

Missy understood that.ﾊThat's what she told me her husband understood.ﾊSo you say, "Was it worth it?"ﾊEvery life is precious. That's what distinguishes us from the enemy.ﾊEverybody matters.ﾊBut I think it's worth it, Jim.ﾊ

BUSH:ﾊI think it's worth it, because I think -- I know in the long term a free Iraq, a free Afghanistan, will set such a powerful in a part of the world that's desperate for freedom.ﾊIt will help change the world; that we can look back and say we did our duty.

LEHRER:ﾊSenator, 90 seconds.

KERRY:ﾊI understand what the president is talking about, because I know what it means to lose people in combat.ﾊAnd the question, is it worth the cost, reminds me of my own thinking when I came back from fighting in that war.ﾊ

And it reminds me that it is vital for us not to confuse the war, ever, with the warriors.ﾊThat happened before.ﾊ

KERRY:ﾊAnd that's one of the reasons why I believe I can get this job done, because I am determined for those soldiers and for those families, for those kids who put their lives on the line.ﾊ

That is noble.ﾊThat's the most noble thing that anybody can do. And I want to make sure the outcome honors that nobility.

Now, we have a choice here.ﾊI've laid out a plan by which I think we can be successful in Iraq:ﾊwith a summit, by doing better training, faster, by cutting -- by doing what we need to do with respect to the U.N. and the elections.

There's only 25 percent of the people in there.ﾊThey can't have an election right now.ﾊ

The president's not getting the job done.ﾊ

So the choice for America is, you can have a plan that I've laid out in four points, each of which I can tell you more about or you can go to johnkerry.com and see more of it; or you have the president's plan, which is four words:ﾊmore of the same.

I think my plan is better.

KERRY:ﾊAnd my plan has a better chance of standing up and fighting for those troops.ﾊ

I will never let those troops down, and will hunt and kill the terrorists wherever they are.

LEHRER:ﾊAll right, sir, go ahead.ﾊThirty seconds.ﾊ

BUSH:ﾊYes, I understand what it means to the commander in chief. And if I were to ever say, "This is the wrong war at the wrong time at the wrong place," the troops would wonder, how can I follow this guy?ﾊ

You cannot lead the war on terror if you keep changing positions on the war on terror and say things like, "Well, this is just a grand diversion."ﾊIt's not a grand diversion.ﾊThis is an essential that we get it right.ﾊ

And so, the plan he talks about simply won't work.ﾊ

LEHRER:ﾊSenator Kerry, you have 30 seconds.ﾊYou have 30 seconds, right.ﾊAnd then the president.

KERRY:ﾊSecretary of State Colin Powell told this president the Pottery Barn rule:ﾊIf you break it, you fix it.ﾊ

KERRY:ﾊNow, if you break it, you made a mistake.ﾊIt's the wrong thing to do.ﾊBut you own it.ﾊAnd then you've got to fix it and do something with it.

Now that's what we have to do.ﾊThere's no inconsistency. Soldiers know over there that this isn't being done right yet.ﾊI'm going to get it right for those soldiers, because it's important to Israel, it's important to America, it's important to the world, it's important to the fight on terror.

But I have a plan to do it.ﾊHe doesn't.

LEHRER:ﾊSpeaking of your plan, new question, Senator Kerry.ﾊTwo minutes.ﾊ

Can you give us specifics, in terms of a scenario, time lines, et cetera, for ending major U.S. military involvement in Iraq?

KERRY:ﾊThe time line that I've set out -- and again, I want to correct the president, because he's misled again this evening on what I've said.ﾊI didn't say I would bring troops out in six months.ﾊI said, if we do the things that I've set out and we are successful, we could begin to draw the troops down in six months.

KERRY:ﾊAnd I think a critical component of success in Iraq is being able to convince the Iraqis and the Arab world that the United States doesn't have long-term designs on it.ﾊ

As I understand it, we're building some 14 military bases there now, and some people say they've got a rather permanent concept to them.ﾊ

When you guard the oil ministry, but you don't guard the nuclear facilities, the message to a lot of people is maybe, "Wow, maybe they're interested in our oil."ﾊ

Now, the problem is that they didn't think these things through properly.ﾊAnd these are the things you have to think through.

What I want to do is change the dynamics on the ground.ﾊAnd you have to do that by beginning to not back off of the Fallujahs and other places, and send the wrong message to the terrorists.ﾊYou have to close the borders.ﾊ

You've got to show you're serious in that regard.ﾊBut you've also got to show that you are prepared to bring the rest of the world in and share the stakes.ﾊ

I will make a flat statement:ﾊThe United States of America has no long-term designs on staying in Iraq.

KERRY:ﾊAnd our goal in my administration would be to get all of the troops out of there with a minimal amount you need for training and logistics as we do in some other countries in the world after a war to be able to sustain the peace.

But that's how we're going to win the peace, by rapidly training the Iraqis themselves.ﾊ

Even the administration has admitted they haven't done the training, because they came back to Congress a few weeks ago and asked for a complete reprogramming of the money.ﾊ

Now what greater admission is there, 16 months afterwards. "Oops, we haven't done the job.ﾊWe have to start to spend the money now. Will you guys give us permission to shift it over into training?"

LEHRER:ﾊNinety seconds.

BUSH:ﾊThere are 100,000 troops trained, police, guard, special units, border patrol.ﾊThere's going to be 125,000 trained by the end of this year.ﾊYes, we're getting the job done.ﾊIt's hard work. Everybody knows it's hard work, because there's a determined enemy that's trying to defeat us.

BUSH:ﾊNow, my opponent says he's going to try to change the dynamics on the ground.ﾊWell, Prime Minister Allawi was here.ﾊHe is the leader of that country.ﾊHe's a brave, brave man.ﾊWhen he came, after giving a speech to the Congress, my opponent questioned his credibility.ﾊ

You can't change the dynamics on the ground if you've criticized the brave leader of Iraq.ﾊ

One of his campaign people alleged that Prime Minister Allawi was like a puppet.ﾊThat's no way to treat somebody who's courageous and brave, that is trying to lead his country forward.

The way to make sure that we succeed is to send consistent, sound messages to the Iraqi people that when we give our word, we will keep our word, that we stand with you, that we believe you want to be free. And I do.ﾊ

BUSH:ﾊI believe that 25 million people, the vast majority, long to have elections.ﾊ

I reject this notion -- and I'm suggesting my opponent isn't -- I reject the notion that some say that if you're Muslim you can't free, you don't desire freedom.ﾊI disagree, strongly disagree with that.

LEHRER:ﾊThirty seconds.

KERRY:ﾊI couldn't agree more that the Iraqis want to be free and that they could be free.ﾊ

But I think the president, again, still hasn't shown how he's going to go about it the right way.ﾊHe has more of the same.

Now, Prime Minister Allawi came here, and he said the terrorists are pouring over the border.ﾊThat's Allawi's assessment.ﾊ

The national intelligence assessment that was given to the president in July said, best-case scenario, more of the same of what we see today; worst-case scenario, civil war.ﾊ

I can do better.

BUSH:ﾊYes, let me...

LEHRER:ﾊYes, 30 seconds.

BUSH:ﾊThe reason why Prime Minister Allawi said they're coming across the border is because he recognizes that this is a central part of the war on terror.ﾊThey're fighting us because they're fighting freedom.

They understand that a free Afghanistan or a free Iraq will be a major defeat for them.

BUSH:ﾊAnd those are the stakes.ﾊ

And that's why it is essential we not leave.ﾊThat's why it's essential we hold the line.ﾊThat's why it's essential we win.ﾊAnd we will.ﾊUnder my leadership we're going to win this war in Iraq.ﾊ

LEHRER:ﾊMr. President, new question.ﾊTwo minutes.ﾊDoes the Iraq experience make it more likely or less likely that you would take the United States into another preemptive military action?

BUSH:ﾊI would hope I never have to.ﾊI understand how hard it is to commit troops.ﾊNever wanted to commit troops.ﾊWhen I was running -- when we had the debate in 2000, never dreamt I'd be doing that.ﾊ

But the enemy attacked us, Jim, and I have a solemn duty to protect the American people, to do everything I can to protect us.ﾊ

I think that by speaking clearly and doing what we say and not sending mixed messages, it is less likely we'll ever have to use troops.

BUSH:ﾊBut a president must always be willing to use troops.ﾊIt must -- as a last resort.ﾊ

I was hopeful diplomacy would work in Iraq.ﾊIt was falling apart.ﾊThere was no doubt in my mind that Saddam Hussein was hoping that the world would turn a blind eye.ﾊ

And if he had been in power, in other words, if we would have said, "Let the inspectors work, or let's, you know, hope to talk him out.ﾊMaybe an 18th resolution would work," he would have been stronger and tougher, and the world would have been a lot worse off. There's just no doubt in my mind we would rue the day, had Saddam Hussein been in power.ﾊ

So we use diplomacy every chance we get, believe me.ﾊAnd I would hope to never have to use force.ﾊ

But by speaking clearly and sending messages that we mean what we say, we've affected the world in a positive way.ﾊ

Look at Libya.ﾊLibya was a threat.ﾊLibya is now peacefully dismantling its weapons programs.

BUSH:ﾊLibya understood that America and others will enforce doctrine and that the world is better for it.

So to answer your question, I would hope we never have to.ﾊI think by acting firmly and decisively, it will mean it is less likely we have to use force.ﾊ

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