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アメリカは ロシア軍からの「衛星写真をお持ちのはずですからお出しください」に反論できない
http://www.asyura2.com/14/warb13/msg/499.html
投稿者 猫侍 日時 2014 年 7 月 23 日 18:01:24: De1pMGrYJHTyk
 

米国の「ハフィントン・ポスト」(リベラル系)のトップページには、「NO SMOKING GUN」とデカデカと見出しが掲げられています。
米国は「ロシア側が関与している証拠がある」と数日前は明言していましたが、どうもロシア軍の記者会見の内容に反論できないことを気づいたようです。


以下はそのハフィントン・ポストの記事はAP通信の記事の転載である。


(貼り付け開始)


U.S. Officials: No Evidence Of Direct Russian Link To Malaysia Plane Crash


AP | By KEN DILANIAN Posted: 07/22/2014 5:08 pm EDT | Updated: 07/22/2014 7:59 pm EDT


WASHINGTON (AP) ? Senior U.S. intelligence officials said Tuesday that Russia was responsible for "creating the conditions" that led to the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, but they offered no evidence of direct Russian government involvement.


The intelligence officials were cautious in their assessment, noting that while the Russians have been arming separatists in eastern Ukraine, the U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia.


The officials briefed reporters Tuesday under ground rules that their names not be used in discussing intelligence related to last week's air disaster, which killed 298 people.


The plane was likely shot down by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine, the intelligence officials said, citing intercepts, satellite photos and social media postings by separatists, some of which have been authenticated by U.S. experts.


But the officials said they did not know who fired the missile or whether any Russian operatives were present at the missile launch. They were not certain that the missile crew was trained in Russia, although they described a stepped-up campaign in recent weeks by Russia to arm and train the rebels, which they say has continued even after the downing of the commercial jetliner.


In terms of who fired the missile, "we don't know a name, we don't know a rank and we're not even 100 percent sure of a nationality," one official said, adding at another point, "There is not going to be a Perry Mason moment here."


White House deputy national security adviser Ben Rhodes said the U.S. was still working to determine whether the missile launch had a "direct link" to Russia, including whether there were Russians on the ground during the attack and the degree to which Russians may have trained the separatists to launch such a strike.


"We do think President Putin and the Russian government bears responsibility for the support they provided to these separatists, the arms they provided to these separatists, the training they provided as well and the general unstable environment in eastern Ukraine," Rhodes said in an interview with CNN.


He added that heavy weaponry continues to flow into Ukraine from Russia following the downing of the plane.


The intelligence officials said the most likely explanation for the downing was that the rebels made a mistake. Separatists previously had shot down 12 Ukrainian military airplanes, the officials said.


The officials made clear they were relying in part on social media postings and videos made public in recent days by the Ukrainian government, even though they have not been able to authenticate all of it. For example, they cited a video of a missile launcher said to have been crossing the Russian border after the launch, appearing to be missing a missile.


But later, under questioning, the officials acknowledged they had not yet verified that the video was exactly what it purported to be.


Despite the fuzziness of some details, however, the intelligence officials said the case that the separatists were responsible for shooting down the plane was solid. Other scenarios ? such as that the Ukrainian military shot down the plane ? are implausible, they said. No Ukrainian surface-to-air missile system was in range.


From satellites, sensors and other intelligence gathering, officials said, they know where the missile originated ? in separatist-held territory ? and what its flight path was. But if they possess satellite or other imagery of the missile being fired, they did not release it Tuesday. A graphic they made public depicts their estimation of the missile's flight path with a green line. The jet's flight path was available from air traffic control data.


In the weeks before the plane was shot down, Russia had stepped up its arming and training of the separatists after the Ukrainian government won a string of battlefield victories. The working theory is that the SA-11 missile came from Russia, although the U.S. doesn't have proof of that, the officials said.


U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Samantha Powers said last week that "because of the technical complexity of the SA-11, it is unlikely that the separatists could effectively operate the system without assistance from knowledgeable personnel. Thus, we cannot rule out technical assistance from Russian personnel in operating the systems," she said.


Asked about evidence, one of the senior U.S. intelligence officials said it was conceivable that Russian paramilitary troops are operating in eastern Ukraine, but that there was no direct link from them to the missile launch.


Asked why civilian airline companies were not warned about a possible threat, the officials said they did not know the rebels possessed SA-11 missiles until after the Malaysian airliner was shot down.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/22/malaysia-plane-crash_n_5611113.html?page_version=legacy&view=print&comm_ref=false
(貼り付け終わり)


ロシア軍は21日に欧米側が投げつけた批判に対して、独自の情報網のからの調査結果として次のように反論しています。FTの記事です。


(貼り付け開始)


Last updated: July 21, 2014 10:56 pm
Russia challenges US accusations on MH17


By Kathrin Hille in MoscowAuthor alerts


Russia staged a dramatic challenge to increasingly confident western accusations that separatist rebels it supports in eastern Ukraine shot down a Malaysian Airlines’ plane as the Kremlin sought to avoid blame for the deaths of almost 300 innocent civilians.


The defence ministry in Moscow said Russian aviation monitoring services registered a Ukrainian military aircraft sweeping up towards Flight MH17 immediately before the Boeing disappeared from the radar. It also said that two Buk-M1 anti-aircraft batteries belonging to the Ukrainian military had been moved closer to the crash site by the morning of July 17th but had disappeared 24 hours later.


Moscow delivered its version of events just a day before EU foreign ministers are to decide whether to impose additional sanctions on Russia for its failure to allow investigators unfettered access to the crash site and its refusal in recent weeks to de-escalate the conflict in eastern Ukraine.


The mounting evidence implicating Russia in the disaster put forward by the US and Ukraine in recent days has galvanised European opinion against Moscow. Some analysts have warned that, depending on how the investigation plays out, Russian president Vladimir Putin risks becoming an international pariah.


Josh Earnest, White House spokesman, said that there was mounting evidence to show that pro-Russian separatists were responsible for the crash. “Russian claims to the contrary are getting both more desperate and much harder to believe,” he said.


The Russian defence ministry said it would pass its material on to the Malaysian government on Monday and would also share any future information on the crash. At the same time, it called on the US to make available the evidence for its claim that MH17 was shot down by the rebels.


Lt Gen Andrei Kartapolov, head of the General Staff’s Main Operations Department, said Russia assumed that the US has pictures from a special satellite tasked with collecting data on rocket launches that traversed southeastern Ukraine between 5.06pm and 5.21pm Moscow time on July 17. “If the US has pictures from this satellite, it would be nice of them to share them with the international community,” Mr Kartapolov said.


The challenge is reminiscent of similar demands Moscow made after Soviet armed forces shot down Korean civilian airliners in 1978 and 1983. “Sharing such data always risks compromising your own intelligence sources and infrastructure,” said a foreign defence official in Moscow. “You don’t want to put on the table for Russia what exactly you have and what exactly you know.”


The Russian defence ministry released on Monday what it said was a video of Russian aviation radar from July 17. It featured three moving dots accounting for MH17 and two other civilian aircraft in Ukrainian airspace on routes between Europe and Asia at the time. A fourth dot appeared when MH17 was about 51 kilometres from the Russian border, and almost overlapped with MH17.


Lt Gen Igor Makushev, chief of the Air Force’s Main Staff, said the Russian military could not identify this aircraft but assumed it was an Su-25 fighter aircraft that had quickly climbed to a height of 10,000 metres and approached the Malaysian Boeing.


“Ukrainian officials have claimed that there were no Ukrainian military aircraft in the area of the crash that day,” he said. “That is obviously not true.”


He added that, according to the radar data, the Boeing abruptly lost speed exactly at the time the unidentified aircraft approached it.


Lt Gen Kartapolov also showed satellite pictures of what he identified as two Ukrainian Buk-M1 air defence batteries in Zaroshchenskoe, about 25 kilometres southwest of the Grabovo crash site, on Thursday morning ? only hours before the Boeing was downed. On another picture allegedly showing the same area the next morning, the site was empty.


“The question arises: Why did they move them there, and why did they move them away the next day?” he said.


The Russian military also said MH17 deviated from the northern boundary of its approved flight corridor by 14 kilometres, and added that any crash investigation needed to look into whether this was caused by a navigation error or by commands from Ukrainian air traffic control.


Jonathan Eyal, international director of the Royal United Services Institute, a military think-tank, said Washington would now have to debate “how much intelligence can be revealed without compromising capabilities?”


Earlier this year, Nato hired commercial satellites to provide proof of Russian troop build-ups on the Ukraine border in order to get around the problem. Still, Mr Eyal said: “Either way, the Russians have made an error with this. They cannot counter all of the evidence. All that is left for them to do is throw dust in people’s faces.”


Additional reporting by Sam Jones in London


ソース
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/6aa7441c-10ec-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=intl#axzz38F638jMM


(貼り付け終わり)


FTの記事でロシア軍のカータポロフという軍人が云うように、米国としてはロシア軍から「衛星写真をお持ちのはずですからお出しください」と言われて反論できんかったとことになるわけです。
ロシア側が出している証拠に反論できない時点で米欧とウクライナ政府側は土俵際に押し返されたのだと思われます。

 

  拍手はせず、拍手一覧を見る

コメント
 
01. 2014年7月23日 20:35:29 : nJF6kGWndY

情報戦ということだな

多少、煽られたくらいでは、普通、外交では自分のカードを、そう簡単には見せないものだ


02. 2014年7月23日 21:58:18 : qCAQUxwPFA
>>01
そうかなーw
今出さないでいつ出すのかね?
外交カードのタイミングは今でしょw これでは各国の外交筋に笑われるよ 

03. 2014年7月23日 22:27:42 : K3cGVZp5ec
アメリカがプーチン暗殺指令を出したとは、言えないからね。証拠があるといっても頬かむり。前原のような奴だね。こんなバカがアメリカなら、もつとひどいゴルフ狂が日本にいる。人様を3流と呼ぶ4流財務大臣がいる。字も書けぬ、文字も読めぬ、英語の発音も悪い。こんな人格なき下品な政治家が、懲りも懲りずに放言三昧だ。

04. 2014年7月24日 01:09:42 : CQ9n15woH2
最近、嘘とはっきりわかる嘘をつくのが流行っているのか。


[キエフ 18日 ロイター] - ウクライナ当局者は18日、同国軍は親ロシア派武装勢力との戦闘中、ミサイルを配備しておらず、墜落したマレーシア航空機は軍が使用する対空ミサイルシステムの射程圏外にあったとした。

ウクライナ国家安全保障会議のルイセンコ報道官は「すべてのミサイルが武器庫にあり、使われていない」と述べた。

ウクライナ国防省の報道官は「対空ミサイルは配備されていなかった」と話した。
http://jp.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idJPL4N0PT3LR20140718?rpc=223


05. 2014年7月24日 01:48:35 : TGgfYEbPRU
シリアで政府がサリン使ったって言ったのと同じパターン・・・。
ウクライナ管制官とパイロットの交信内容が未だに出て来ない・・・。
初っぱな表面ネタでアメリカが大騒ぎするんだがロシアから軍事ネタが出て来ると黙り決め込むんだよな・・・。

06. 2014年7月24日 07:06:21 : YxpFguEt7k
多田将氏
「持っているのに出したがらないのは、何かまずいことでもあるのかと、勘繰ってしまいますよね 
冷戦期には、鮮明な画像は撮影場所と撮影者を特定されるので、わざと画質を悪くしてましたが、今回はその必要はないわけですし」
https://twitter.com/sho_tada/status/492062998056300545

出し惜しみは疑惑の元。


07. 2014年7月24日 12:16:58 : CQ9n15woH2
墜落現場の上空写真
http://media.dumpert.nl/foto/12e38e24_MH17_WV2_21JUL2014_a.jpg

残骸の所在の位置関係
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/image/1276174/1406007317000/large16x9/768/432/satellite-primary-burn.jpg
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/blob/1276176/1406007323000/satellite-secondary-1-data.jpg

人家と比べるとだいたいの範囲がわかる。地上で救出活動をしているところを見ると一面が燃えた残骸のように見えるが、上から見るとそうでもない。残骸はわずかである。

墜落現場以外に落ちた残骸では燃えていないものもある
http://previous.presstv.ir/photo/20140722/372285_Ukraine-MH17.jpg
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/image/1273004/1405824692000/large16x9/480/270/mh17-wreck-july-19.jpg
http://static.financialexpress.com/pic/uploadedImages/mediumImages/M_Id_476573_Malaysia_Airlines_MH17.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KFCZM6WzoLg/U8pUvrqvHYI/AAAAAAAAB2o/a7LdEn8ZNY4/s1600/mayat+mh+17.jpg
http://eurozpravy.cz/pictures/photo/2014/07/20/havarie-mh17-afp-8_resize-1405818401-75a8bca0_660x371.jpg

ひまわり畑や道路上など広範囲のあちこちに残骸が転がっている状態で、これは墜落時に飛び散ったのではなく分解しながら落ちてきたと考えるべきか。ミサイルによって高空で空中分解したにしては破片の散らばる範囲が狭すぎ、地上付近で分解したならその理由がわからない。ちなみになんで残骸の中に車のホイールが転がっているのかについてもわからない。

人家からかなり近い。目撃者も多いのではないか。
http://www.nationalturk.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Malaysia-Airlines-MH17-Crash-Site.jpg

そして、ミサイルの散弾跡のような痕跡のある機体の破片
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtO9n2ECYAAmibJ.png:large

この写真を誰が最初に流したのかがわからないが、現在ブログ等で広まっている。文句をつけるとしたら、内側から外側へ抜けた穴と外側から内側へ抜けた穴が混在してる点だ。


08. 2014年7月24日 20:48:52 : Wr5cvCffrE
プー様は心の広い人だ、ユダメリカは正直に出せばいいのに

シリアに続いて今回も、ウソつき・ホラ吹きのユダメリカに、反省と立ち直るチャンスを与えているのだ。
オバカは休暇中というかバックレ中らしいが、こんなんじゃ、また国際社会からバカにされるぞ。

まあ、それも楽しいんだけどね。
だいたい、連中が「私が悪うございました」なんて、素直に言うワケがないもんね。
謝罪するくらいなら、いっそ国家デフォルトするだろうよ。


09. 2014年7月25日 05:41:44 : ZvcGS9qUik
米国は写真を出さないだろ。
写真代、ものすごく高いから。
出したら事故の証拠になり、ウクライナとの共謀・または首謀者として
経済制裁などの損害賠償をロシアから求められ、その額は1兆円以上になる?
米国民、沸騰?

急いで廃棄だろう・・・


10. 2014年7月25日 09:43:14 : rrhrFN6JLd
01)はアメポチかアベポチかどっちだ。

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